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Crate Sprint Car Division  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 08:00 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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I happen to have owned one of these clutch,flywheel,starter belhousing packages that Tilton built for midget sprints. Still have it along with a mounting plate if someone wants it. Real neat stuff wieghs 28lbs with clutch, starter, throwout brg, flywheel, flywheel bolts, clutch bolts, bellhousing and a U-joint flange to mount the driveline to. The mounting has to be very exact also so the input shaft is square and true with the crankshaft tilton advised + or - .002inch. Not easy to do. They cost $3,000.00 back then and you would still have to address counterwieghting that small flywhell to be compatible with a crate engine. I am sure there are other options. None of this really matters what I want to know are the real rules and regulations for a crate sprint engine not specualtion.

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 09:04 PM
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NWWT#14
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It's throttlebody injection on methanol and push to start !!! I suggest you leave a message on the Sunset Speedway answering system to get ahold of Jerry for the details on the create installation that way there won't be any speculation .

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 09:04 PM
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Romig22
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There happened to be what looked like 2 crate sprints at Cottage Grove last Saturday. They had an intake manifold similar to a standard four barrel. Each intake runner had been tapped for an injection nozzle. What looked like a four barrel carb on top was a throttle body. No starters, sprint fuel pump and barrel valve were used. That’s about all I noticed

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 10:36 PM
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SPRINT8
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I made a flywheel adapter out of 1 in square tubing And a couple hours of fabrication. And a $150 high torque starter . With a good battery and in gear it will take right off.

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 11:01 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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Getting a hold of Jerry is next to impossible been there done that. Much better solution would be to post the rules somewhere and explain how to deal with the complications of installing this engine in a sprint car so all can see without having to track a person down for a phone call. Induction is easy and is up to management to decide.   What I want to know is how they are dealing with the flywheel, balance, scatter shield, driveline, and safety situations. What is allowed and what isnt. For instance if the flywheel is removed then the engine has to come apart for balancing. Would be nice if this info was posted somewhere. If it is I missed it I would like to be directed to that info.

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 11:30 PM
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Don S.
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Not knowing about these motors, I'm gathering that they are externally balanced. Is that right?

What's the new price for them?

 

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 11:48 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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External balance yes. Counter wieghted at the flywheel not the dampner. The cheapest I have found them is $5,500.00 for a 604. Again I assume they are going to use the 604. With modifications added to get it running and installed this does not save money you can build a way better, more reliable,  and more powerfull engine cheaper. As you know handling and driving wins races this is not drag racing we are talking about. In the late models these engines do o.k. because rarely can you hook the big power. When this first started with Walters it was Fastrak sanctioned and by talking to Rick Ellison their head tech guy who has dynoed over 200 of these engines they have a 50h.p. variance from 350 to 400 at the flywheel. This power difference is normal for assembly line engines. These figures concur with what I have seen myself and what other places have shown on their dyno's. On  dry slick tracks that are the norm for Oregon.  Late models hardly ever put more than 300 - 350 h.p. to the ground so the crate engines compete quite well.

Last edited on Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 08:08 PM by Stipe Engine Spec

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 Posted: Tuesday Oct 11th, 2011 11:59 PM
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Don S.
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$5,500 (assuming this maybe the motor, understood), then it needs to come apart and be balanced because the flywheel won't be used. and there will need to be some mods to the manifold and a throttle body purchased, hmmmm.

I must be missing something.

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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 01:55 AM
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sclmfan
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The Yellow now 26 car has ran 3 time I know of at Cottage Grove Edit: was the 64jr Car finished first race. Then as the 26 car hasen't finished a race yet. The black 64jr has never finished a race, Brandy Bounds the 17 car ( look at Madmann59 pictures) was in the third crate motored car it would just run a few laps and quit.

Work done to the Motors, Drill intake for injectors, yes has 8. Has a barrel valve. Has a 4 barrel throttle body. Remove cam plug and have cam drilled for Spud like and Sprint Car Motor. Power Steering and Fuel Pump srtacked off back of Motor. Not balanced looked like it shakes it apart thats why they don't run very long.

Can't use regular Sprint Car injection, center bolts on intake go straight down, not at a slant like the rest do.

Last edited on Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 01:50 PM by sclmfan



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 03:08 AM
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T. Michael
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To the untrained eye it seems a simple matter to use a crate motor for a sprint car. It’s not. I think anything is possible, but this is a big task and to come up with an economical answer is an even bigger task. The concept is great and I hope someone can pull it off. 

First of all I don’t know how you can address the issues that need to be addressed with out pulling the motor apart and that defeats the crate motor idea.


I have drilled several dozen cams for the installation of the fuel pump spud and every one had to be faced to keep the spud from cocking when installed so that the hex drive will not break off. I actually put a small chamfer in the cam and a slight taper on the spud to insure the spud runs perfectly concentric.

I like the idea of using a 4 barrel manifold with injector nozzles drilled in the manifold where the nitrous fittings go. Tim Carlson showed up with this set up on a full up 360 at Skagit about 1992 or 3 and it worked great. It was something I have wanted to try for years. His ran well and then they outlawed it.

A self starting injected alcohol motor really brings a lot of problems not normally thought of. An alky carb motor is an easy self starter, but an injected motor is different. For one, the standard electric starter only turns the motor over at a snails pace compared to a push truck start. At this slow RPM there is not enough flow (GPM) generated to properly divert through the pill and not enough pressure to the injectors. At 500 engine RPM the pump is only turning 250 RPM and with the orifices loss and pump inefficiencies, little or no volume is left to establish the correct fuel air ratio. Remember, the pump only puts out about 1.7GPM at 1800 RPM. About ½ of that is diverted back to the tank through the pill. Sprint motors do not like to have their speed slowly increased while starting. They need to get to a fast cranking speed right away or they will hydraulic. That is because you want the fuel pump to build enough pressure to piss out the injectors with some semblance of atomization instead of filling the cylinder with raw liquid.


A magneto with advance capabilities is desirable to be able to retard the spark for starting and then advance to the proper setting after the engine is started. Our self starting USAC Silver Crown car had a fixed magneto and it was almost impossible to start with the Tilton starter set up. The large marine battery had to be fully charged and all connections made up very tight. Even then you could light a cigarette off the starter housing after cranking the engine enough to start it. The compression was much higher than a crate motor though.


At the RPM meeting in Reno last year, one of my goals was to research the crate motor concept so I attended the GM crate motor seminar and later met with GM’s crate motor manager to discuss the use of a crate motor in an injected alcohol burning sprint class. I came away with the feeling it can be done with a carb set up, but will be uneconomical and unreliable if normal sprint car criteria is used.

When it comes to an engine, it is all about proper air/fuel ratio, proper spark timing, and keeping it lubed. Now if someone comes up with a cheap electronic alcohol fuel injector system to properly manage the air/fuel ratio, it will work. Just my humble opinion.

Last edited on Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 03:44 AM by T. Michael



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 04:42 AM
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Rick Terry
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Good insight Mike! Nice info



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 06:23 AM
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racerjim06
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http://://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=1533&c=1058

i dont know if you consider this cheap , but it is a complete methanol crate motor for a sprint car with electronic injection , headers, rad , pumps , all hoses , wiring and electronic control unit [fuel and ignition] for 10 grand .

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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 06:55 AM
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Kyle Miller
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sclmfan wrote: The Yellow now 26 car has ran 3 time I know of at Cottage Grove and never finished a race yet. The black 64jr has never finished a race, Brandy Bounds the 17 car ( look at Madmann59 pictures) was in the third crate motored car it would just run a few laps and quit.

That's a little bit misleading.  None of those cars DNF'd for mechanical reasons except the 17 car.  The 26 car finished it's first race, hit the wall and destroyed the rear end in the 2nd run, and just pulled off in the 3rd.   The black 64jr I believe made it to the end on it's first race but spun out on the last lap. Then last weekend was involved in an incident.

So of the three crate motors that have ran Cottage Grove, only one has had mechanical issues.

Last edited on Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 06:55 AM by Kyle Miller

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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 01:38 PM
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sclmfan
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Thanks 10_racing I only get part of the info off of My Laps. To difficult to see races and work on cars at same time.



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 07:39 PM
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T. Michael
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That link to swankshort blocks does not work for me. Would love to see their sight. Does it work for anyone else? :?



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 07:48 PM
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Rick Terry
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http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 09:32 PM
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T. Michael
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racerjim06 wrote: i dont know if you consider this cheap , but it is a complete methanol crate motor for a sprint car with electronic injection , headers, rad , pumps , all hoses , wiring and electronic control unit [fuel and ignition] for 10 grand .


The new link worked. Interesting. I don't think their $9000 motor runs on Alky.

The $19,000 one does

The $9000 Race Saver is basically a WESCO type motor (except 305 instead of WESCO's 360 limit) which actually can be built for around $4500 if you buy the injectors and mag right.

Still, I'm glad to see people starting to figure out that Electronic injectors can squirt alcohol, even if you have to use two per cylinder to satisfy the Air/fuel ratio.

Kinsler sells the tried and true mechanical set-up, but they also have electronic for the street guys that want to look like "real racers". Just need to have the Geek box tweeked to make it all happen right.

:D Thanks for the link.

 



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 09:54 PM
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SPRINT8
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Large selection for sure. Are those engines used I any classes. Or did he make up engines for sprints and hope people would start using them

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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 10:08 PM
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CurtK
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JR......I'm pretty sure that Tony Hunt runs one in a USAC car and the sprint guys in SLC at RMR are allowed to use them also. I talked to this guy at a Reno RPM workshop one year and he pitched his program. I think you would have a better chance to sell the program to a start up deal then you would to a group that has already spent their $$ on what is in the car....just my .02.



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 Posted: Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 11:49 PM
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T. Michael
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I believe the Hunt deal is a "Spec" motor built by Ron Shaver. Dollanski ran one at Knoxville with the WoO for a research and development program. There are alot of people that are trying to keep the cost down for the best interest of the sport. Shaver is one, believe it or not. He knows the cost has gotten out of hand and he will stay in business longer if he can find a marketable formula.

Last summer my oldest son stopped by Shavers Shop while on his mid-life crisis motor cycle tour. Their business has dropped way off. People just can't afford the high costs of the engines he used to build so he is looking for alternatives. Shavers employee made one call and lined my son up with a private tour of Parnelli's museum of cars. They open it up to him and said,"Enjoy".Unbelievable the cars in there, and he took a ton of pictures. I love the V8 double cammer sprints .

And Curt, you bring up a good point about the information you can get by attending meetings like the up-coming WARPA and RPM . Don't take this wrong, but I was never a Davey Hamilton fan until last year at RPM. He gave a wonderful insight into racing from the racers side and as a promoter and as a procurer of "SPONSORSHIP" which is so important these days. I am now a D.H. fan. 


Tons of info to be gathered for the taking.

Last edited on Wednesday Oct 12th, 2011 11:58 PM by T. Michael



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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 01:14 AM
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CurtK
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Off of the Schwankes website Mike......

"Hunt drives the #56 Metal Works sprint car on dirt and pavement, with his pavement car powered by a Schwanke spec-engine and his dirt car powered by a Wesmar 360. His three wins this season bring him to 55 career USAC victories along with 66 career USAC poles."

I have had my "days" with David myself.....but when you put yourself in the position I managed to do as an official that is to be expected with racers. But I do have the utmost respect for him also. And I still text him or call him once in awhile....so it must not be all bad....lol. 



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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 02:00 AM
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T. Michael
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Curt, :P    Guess I missed that part, too wrapped up in the tech stuff.



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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 03:06 AM
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racerjim06
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the $9000 schwanke engine runs on gas , the $10,000 engine runs on methanol and there is 3 other sprint engines on methanol in the $12,000 to $20,000 range depending on how much HP you want . all are "spec" engines for different tour groups . 485 hp for $10,000 , 785hp for $20,000 .

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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 04:56 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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This thread kind of got off the beaten path for me I was wondering how installing these crate motors in sprint cars is going to come about and the rules that go with it. From there it has gotten into a discussion about cheaper engine possibilities.  T. Michael post brought up some good points and the most significant thing he said when pertaining to crate engines in sprint cars is well put. You stated --"uneconomical and unreliable if normal sprint car criteria is used." -- so true. Using the chevy 604 crate engine in a sprint brings up many small cans of worms that add up to money you dont see with a late model install. The whole idea is to reduce costs. Sealed engines raise costs. Also to me having a monopoly on engine parts sales is not right either. People should be able to work on and assemble their own engines to save money also. We have discussed this at our local Madras track for 15 years. Hard answer I am not sure how economy and sprint cars can go together. Bit contradictory. Nothing on those cars not one bolt or nut is 'economy'.  Dictating an economical engine is tough and I am not sure how you accomplish this. At Madras when sprints first started using V-8 eninges they ran 2 barrel carbs and to me that carb restriction was a good idea and it would have been interesting to see what would have happened to the class if it had been left that way. If the carb was left totally stock and not allowed to be modified that would level the playing field between high dollar and expensive engines quite a bit. With the two barrels those cars were not that much slower either. I liked this because all you have to do is tech the carb and thats it. I suppose a rule for cast iron heads could be added also to save money. This two barrel thing died after a couple of years so no telling how it would have worked. It it would have been interesting. You could still spend $25,000.00 plus on a two barrel engine but would it really  be advantageous enough over another guy with a budget two barrel engine to be the difference between winning and losing? I am inclined to think not if the carb cannot be modified. I have heard many ideas on this and all have some good points but none seem to be a cure such as having a dedicated cheap cylinder head, induction restrictions, spec engines, etc. Somehow there needs to be a restriction on the engines that eliminates big money being an advantage. Hard to do. For one thing you can always buy a real lightwieght expensive rotating assemblies that will spool up quicker and can easily give a one or two car length advantage coming off the turns. To outlaw these parts is a cure but then it entails a pretty severe tech inspection. Besides having some kind of restriction to save costs that same restriction needs to be simple, easy,and cheap to tech. So all in all this is a hard thing to implement. I will conclude by saying the first order of business would be to combine and simplify sprint rules between sanctioning bodies such as the ODSS and NWWT adding another class just splits them up even more.

Last edited on Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 08:53 PM by Stipe Engine Spec

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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 09:17 PM
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T-Mike / Stipe and others concerned

I agree with you completely, I have spent many hours on the net over the last two winters trying to figure out and spure debate on a less expensive entry level Sprint Car formula, our thread on this site, has gotten over ten thousand (10,000) hits with many Pro's and Con's, but, no one would step up and offer to help us figure out a formula for consolidation of the Econo/Sportsman/Limited classes here in the N.W., I'm still baffled as to why some of us from the different groups and tracks could not set down and at least start some serious dialogue on the subject ? Maybe the up and coming WARPA meeting in a few weeks in Portland,Or. could be an opportunity, what do you think ???

Last edited on Friday Nov 4th, 2011 11:38 PM by NWWT#14

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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 09:45 PM
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JB
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How bout take the 10 grand u say it takes for crate or spec engine or whatever and convert ur open motors too ascs and double the car count,

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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 10:08 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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Must say true story none if this matters without car count. Honestly I am not even sure what the exact differences are between some sprint sanctioning bodies. Common ground is needed and cutting costs is also needed. If an outfit like Shaver Engines is way down on business that does not bode well for lesser known engine shops and car count in general.  Being together on common ground is doable but cutting expenses is very very hard. Crate or spec engines can help in the engine department but that also creates a giant tech effort to control possible cheating. They go hand in hand if you have enough rules to keep engines less costly then tech needs to take a huge leap forward from what it is now in this area to control it. Tough circle and not sure how to do it best. I dont see the chevy crate engine as the answer. Assembly line engine and you can build a much better engine cheaper not to mention the problems installing them in a sprint car. Ascs engine rules are too expensive  and it will not double car count. Going to a 305 inch engine does not help either 360 inch stuff is cheaper, most already have 350 stuff, and it is the way to keep it. Cubic inch rule on its own will not save money. I do think it should be kept simple where tech can be done with eyeballs no disassembly. I really do like the 2 barrel carb idea but trying to sell this to sprint people is pretty much impossible not manly enough I guess. Something to consider it is better than no car count and no racing no matter how manly or macho. If you have a stock alchohol 4412 Holley 500cfm 2 barrel and allow no modifications at all other than tuning you have an intake restricition that pretty well nullifies a lot of high dollar parts and modification to the engine itself. Cant allow these tricked out 2 barrels or  2 barrels that flow more than this or it gets very expensive again and does nothing to help keep things cheaper. If you cant get the air in high dollar heads, valves, valve springs, cams, lifters, exhaust, etc. etc.  are not an advantage so if you want to spend big dollars go ahead I can still win with my budget engine. This allows the budget racer a chance to win without spending big on engines. Another good idea is to designate a certain cylnder head to run. Something mild and with smaller valves that cannot make big power.  Do not allow any bowl blending or porting.  Stock untouched.  This is just harder to tech than a carb but can work. Just not easy but there are two possibilities to help keep engine costs down. Getting a group together and trying to come up with rules all are happy with is pretty hard to do. Been there done that at Madras years ago when sprints were introduced as a class we cut the involvement down to 6 people and still could not agree on rules. So all in all this is not easy and I am not sure what the answer is not meaning to come off as all gloom and doom but the economy is controlling  a lot of things in life right now. I have given some ideas but cutting costs is tough.

Last edited on Thursday Oct 20th, 2011 01:26 AM by Stipe Engine Spec

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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 10:12 PM
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rally root
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NWWT#14 

 as I remeber after  asking about 305 motors  last year and getting many different answers ... didn't you come back and say well since nobody has any good ideas  we will drop this  thing ..that makes me wonder... .if nobody had the same idea as yours ..were none of them any good ???the reason I ask that question ,I own a 305 motor running a two barrell  we ran at republic  /northport this year the 4th of july weekend ... stayed on the same lap with the 360 injected guys  ..had a good time .kinda made me think the 305 thing could work ...as you or someone pointed out it works in texas or backeast someplace  why not here ???

RALLY ROOT

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 Posted: Thursday Oct 13th, 2011 11:54 PM
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NWWT#14
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rally

I'm thrilled to here about your 305 w/two barrel  that's what we want to hear, I, like you and some others are just trying to figure out how we can make all this work, with what we have and what's available, however, it appeared from the response we recieved on that thread, that the ideal thing to do in our area, was to stick with the 360cu.in format, sence that was what everyone was supposedly using, I even went to the expense of building an Econo Sprint last off season to run with the WESCO cars when they ran their Dirt series this season (2011), but, guess what, no one showed up to the party, even though the WESCO Dirt schedule was running with us (NWWT), WHAT HAPPENED ??? I know, you and T-Mike know, running a Sprint on dirt without the tin on top is even less expensive ( less fuel, less tire ware and fewer engine rebuilds), let's get that WESCO Dirt deal going, hell we'll join !!!  

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 12:57 AM
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JB
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i remember being a kid and there was a 292 class, witch was suposed to be the cheap class. no matter what the rules are teams with money will come in and drive the cost up, even used 305 motors are goin for 9000 plus, if promotors can make racing around here more enjoyable teams will find a way to race. jmo

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 01:35 AM
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backwoods96
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How about a claimer rule ?:?

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 01:40 AM
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JB
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what rules does ascs keep changin stipe, just wonderin

 

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 03:01 AM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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 Ascs engines are hardly what I woud call 'economy.'  I know the Brodix head engines are in the 700h.p. area which is not cheap to build and maintain if you want a reliable engine . The discussion has turned into how to make racing cheaper in the engine department. Tough deal I have no great answers to cure that problem. I mentioned a couple of ideas that could help but even then a do they really cure the problem? I will say after these discussions I sat down and read the WESCO rules. As far as engines go they have a very good setup in my opinion and I see nothing wrong with what they are trying to accomplish. Maybe thats what local racers should try and push towards and adapt to since it is already established. I think this is really important for the local sprint racers to combine forces. Car count is down everywhere and does not look like it is going to get any better. Keeping costs down helps and with greater numbers showing up to race it is a win win for everyone. The way things are headed if joining together on this does not happen local sprint racing could be a hard commodity to come by. Thats why I joined this discussion I really do fear losing local sprint racing and to me personally that would really suck I like sprint cars and think they are way cool. Sprints are amazing machines in my opinion and they are fun to watch not to mention they haul ass.  Just my opinion.

Last edited on Thursday Oct 20th, 2011 01:21 AM by Stipe Engine Spec

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 01:38 PM
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T. Michael
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Getting to the topic: Crate engine.

Technically I can't see it being an economical advantage

Just my opinion here, but I feel there is a maket for ASCS type 360's and an econmical class 360's.

If you go back to the original WESCO and Skagit Sportsman engine rules you have solved the problem.

The WESCO rules have to go back to a part number head that matches a "true replica"

of a stock production head like the old 441 442 heads.

Then you can build a program as a promotor that can draw from two different economic demographics.

Time everyone in together in groups of 6 with transponders.

Run "A" and "B" mains based on the qualifying time and have fully inverted starts.

It might amaze some people were some of the cars would finish. It ain't all engine.



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It ain't about where you're going that's important; it's all about how much fun you have getting there!
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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 02:51 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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Have to agree T. Michael !  I agree with what Smokey Yunik said before you can have cheap racing or wide open expensive racing and there really is no in between when it comes to money.  Having open 360 and econo 360 is a good idea also. WESCO rules state a production stock iron cylinder head only. Designating a certain casting number head is a good idea. Levels the playing field, no questions as to what is legal, keeps out hot rod aftermarket iron heads, bowtie performance iron heads, therfore keepng costs down. I also agree the chevy crate motor is not the economic answer. You also understand that handling and driving win not the engine. Like I said earlier you would be surprised how fast the 2 barrel winged cars were just a few tenths off an open 360 at Madras. Now days it would be the same or closer yet. They ran on gas at that time also. This was in 1993 a long time ago and the Madras racers were dead nuts beginners and have come as long way since then with chassis and handling knowlege. If the 2 barrel deal had continued the cars would have gotten faster being all the racers were just beginning in sprint racing, had way old heavy cars and parts, and didnt have good engines. Handling and laps times would have gotten much much better over time so how much faster would a current  open 360 car really be? At times none at all.  First order of business is the hardest. Get people together, sanctioning bodies join forces, and implement an engine that doesnt cost a arm and a leg to build and operate. Maybe then you could have enough car count to have an A and B main.

Last edited on Friday Oct 14th, 2011 04:17 PM by Stipe Engine Spec

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 04:11 PM
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parkerracing
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One of the reason, if not the only reason, that the ODSS and NWWT are an "OPEN 360" is a simple one. Bring what ya got or can build. With so many variations of how to get there and so many builders out there I can tell you this, IT AIN'T HORSEPOWER that wins a non-winged race, period. We have guys that have 35K Shaver to alot of garage build motors and the guy that has a well tuned chassis and skills wins more often than big $ motors.

Now, with that said, toss the wings on and its a whole differant ball game. There it would have to be sealed motors and shock rules and tire rules and weight rules to make it fair....So why make a econo winged sprint class from scratch?

Bring your novice drivers up in non-winged and if they really have to spend big $ and want the glory, move up to Winged 360.

As for ASCS, I would need to spend about half of what my intial engine build cost was to update and be competitive (remember, its winged racing), so I just won't, not when there is non winged racing to be had.

Just my two cents, and that might be all its worth.lol.



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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 04:31 PM
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Romig22
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OK I am going to interject a little reality into this conversation. The vast majority of racers/owners which these days most are one in the same will not be willing to spend any more money to “change” what they already have. I am sure you are aware you can’t just throw a set of stock heads on an open or ASCS motor. The sprint classes that allow open motors are the only ones that draw “others” to their races. You can’t run an open motor in the ASCS class (even if you show up with an open motor car and they only have 10 cars) and show up with an open or ASCS motor to run with the limited’s, that’s just not going to work!

If Elma were to have a “non conflicting open show” I think they would have plenty of cars for a B main. It seems to work well at Cottage Grove.

If you want to change something it has to be easily reversible so you can run with “your” class the next weekend. Add restrictors, a set rev chip, mandated gear ratio something but you are not going to get very many if anyone to build another motor!

By the way that was my wallet talking!

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 05:13 PM
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Stipe Engine Spec
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LOL - you are not injecting any reality here you have stated the obvious which we all know. Of course no one wants to buy another engine all rule changes cost money whether its engine related or otherwise. This whole discussion began over the start up of a crate engine series at Banks. I cannot speak for Elma or Skagit but in Oregon sprint car counts are so low it is getting hard to field enough for a race so something needs to be done. You have mentioned another good idea which is resticitors in the injectors. Smaller injector openings would be an advantge for the guy with a budget engine that cant use all that airflow so it is worth discussing. This is all discussion and hopefully something positive will come of it.

Last edited on Friday Oct 14th, 2011 05:14 PM by Stipe Engine Spec

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 05:40 PM
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rally root
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OK 

guys  lots being said here .. just my take on this .. is you are now  telling me the sprint guys wont change what they have already got ..yet skagit is demanding a switch to ascs heads this  coming year ..so make the change or dont come back .now that was maybe one of the last  open motor tracks left around ???the way I see it  ascs is a profesional  type traveling  group  just shy of the outlaws..with big 360 motors..  and thats ok it seems to be working for them ..those with real money race there ..maybe not so many garage built motors though ..those of us still building our own stuff  want to race somewhere ..now you say again cause its now (silly season ). maybe we can all get together with a set of rules for the small guys .this happens every year  when racings over . then the phone calls begin ..everyone says  lets get on the same page we will have big shows / more cars they all agree.. yet somewhere in between the agreement time and rule making meeting day... it all gets thrown out the window ..now the main econo type  clubs around here .. skagit  and wilroc run dart blocks  .. wesco and ephrata  and I belive the spokane club are all stock block chevrolet  with 53 lb crankshafts ..a stock block motor  is a great base for economy type horsepower .. like T MIKE said   about $4500.00 makes a great  wesco type engine ..  and backwoods 96 who's been racing longer than when  dirt was discovered ..  throws in the claimer rule ..that being said go ahead spend more money cause for X dollars  i will buy your engine  .. stock  chevrolet block... stock chevrolet producition head ..  53 lb stock chevrolet   crank .. wet sump pan  2 3/16 injection or carb  2 or  4 barrell  .. flat tappet cam shaft ... anyone out there can afford that combination ... in two or three seasons  .when it scatters  .make a circle  of 1/2 mile around your house  you will find the  parts in your neighbors garage ..  to put it back together...no trips to the speedshop needed ... it worked for skyvalley /  wow / crow  /wesco /skagit economy mods ...parts are still out there ... quit trying to be the outlaws .go see them when they come to town .. build affordable .. have fun .. make friends ..taken from an earlier statement  .this is my wallet speaking

RALLY ROOT  MONROE WA

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 Posted: Friday Oct 14th, 2011 08:00 PM
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NWWT#14
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Fellows, if this discussion is going to continue, maybe we should think about taking it elsewhere, since it is on SUNSET SPEEDWAY PARK and they have committed to a WINGED SPEC. SPRINT SERIES, OK !!! How about over to "ALL N/W Open Wheel dirt racing", on this site

Last edited on Friday Oct 14th, 2011 08:07 PM by NWWT#14

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